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The Nameless Recovery Show
Episode #6 Marcus Clark

Transcription

Marcus Clark:

I am tired.

Estil Wallace:

Will the ‘bucha wake you up?

Marcus Clark:

Mm-mm.

Estil Wallace:

What will it do for you?

Marcus Clark:

It’s supposed to be good for my digestive tract.

Estil Wallace:

It’s terrible for my taste buds.

Marcus Clark:

Nothing’s good for my digestive tract apparently, though. I cannot get my gut health on point. This is delicious. I love kombucha.

Estil Wallace:

Yeah, you know what? Kombucha’s one of those things you either love or supremely dislike. Well, I guess we’re rolling right into another episode of The Nameless Recovery Show.

Marcus Clark:

Yes.

Estil Wallace:

I am Estil Wallace. Today with me is the famed Marcus Clark.

Marcus Clark:

Not famed. There’s no fame. There’s literally zero fame.

Estil Wallace:

The renowned-

Marcus Clark:

There’s no renowned.

Estil Wallace:

… Marcus Clark.

Marcus Clark:

Neither one of those are true.

Estil Wallace:

The esteemed. The heralded. The widely known, revered, feared and respected Marcus Clark ladies and gentlemen.

Marcus Clark:

None of those things are true.

Estil Wallace:

Welcome.

Marcus Clark:

Thank you. Welcome to the office.

Estil Wallace:

So, The Nameless Recovery Show is getting done in the dark today.

Marcus Clark:

We’re not in the dark.

Estil Wallace:

It seems like we’re in the dark.

Marcus Clark:

To them it’s not the dark.

Estil Wallace:

Should we whisper?

Marcus Clark:

No.

Estil Wallace:

Is that weird?

Marcus Clark:

Yeah.

Estil Wallace:

Okay, I won’t whisper.

Marcus Clark:

Nobody want’s to hear whispers in their cars.

Estil Wallace:

Driving around, looking at some dudes whispering in the dark.

Marcus Clark:

They’re just like, “What the fuck?” Hopefully if you’re driving, don’t look at anything we’re doing

Estil Wallace:

It’s official. If you’re driving, just listen your audio only.

Marcus Clark:

Audio specifically.

Estil Wallace:

Marcus Clark, you are chief operating officer of a treatment center. Cornerstone Healing Center.

Marcus Clark:

Mm-hmm (affirmative)

Estil Wallace:

It’s great to have you. You’re a professional. You work in the industry. You’re also in recovery yourself.

Marcus Clark:

Mm-hmm (affirmative)

Estil Wallace:

Tell me, before you got into recovery personally … obviously you got into it personally before you got into it professionally … but before you got into recovery, did you have a view of what drug addicts look like?

Marcus Clark:

No idea.

Estil Wallace:

None. It didn’t even cross your mind? What about alcoholics?

Marcus Clark:

No, nothing.

Estil Wallace:

You didn’t have a view of what that is?

Marcus Clark:

I knew nothing about that.

Estil Wallace:

When’s the first time you heard the word drug addict and you were like …

Marcus Clark:

March 10th of 2011.

Estil Wallace:

What happened on March 10th, 2011?

Marcus Clark:

When I got sober.

Estil Wallace:

They were like, what?

Marcus Clark:

You have to say you were an alcoholic when you walked into the meeting.

Estil Wallace:

Was that uncomfortable?

Marcus Clark:

I didn’t know. I didn’t know. I had no idea. I didn’t know what that meant. I didn’t come from a life where that was a thing. I never heard about AA. I didn’t know about alcoholics. I didn’t know about drug addicts. I didn’t know about anything. It wasn’t a thing. People smoke. I saw crackheads in South Carolina, but that’s it. I had no idea what a drug addict or an alcoholic was, or I never even really-

Estil Wallace:

What do crackheads in South Carolina look like?

Marcus Clark:

Crackheads everywhere. A crackhead’s a crackhead.

Estil Wallace:

Not really. Jerry Garcia smoked a lot of crack.

Marcus Clark:

Well, you know.

Estil Wallace:

He didn’t look like a crackhead. He looked like a hippie.

Marcus Clark:

Homeless dudes. Dudes experiencing homelessness.

Estil Wallace:

Let’s talk about that, people experiencing homelessness versus homeless people. Why do you say that?

Marcus Clark:

That’s because I was a social worker.

Estil Wallace:

Yeah, but social workers-

Marcus Clark:

Stigma.

Estil Wallace:

Stigma. So, give me some background. What’s the difference between homeless people and people experiencing homelessness?

Marcus Clark:

Homeless person separates you from other people.

Estil Wallace:

How?

Marcus Clark:

You’re homeless. I’m not homeless, you’re homeless. I can’t be like you because you’re that thing. Same thing as when people say you’re a drug addict. “Drug addicts.” Anybody could become homeless.

Estil Wallace:

Interesting concept. So, anybody could become homeless, so at any given point, somebody could be experiencing homelessness.

Marcus Clark:

Yeah, but you judge a person by that though, too. That’s his defining marker is the fact that he doesn’t have a home.

Estil Wallace:

It’s like a biomarker. It’s like a birth mark.

Marcus Clark:

Right, when it’s not true. He could’ve been successful.

Estil Wallace:

There’s a homeless dude.

Marcus Clark:

Yeah. He could have a mental health issue. He could be a drug addict. It could be a million things. So, it’s just like taking that stigma-

Estil Wallace:

You ever sleep outside?

Marcus Clark:

Yeah, a bunch of times.

Estil Wallace:

You don’t look homeless.

Marcus Clark:

No. Right, but apparently I transitioned from being a homeless person to not being-

Estil Wallace:

To being a homed person?

Marcus Clark:

A homed person. It’s like that doesn’t make any sense. It’s a misnomer.

Estil Wallace:

It is a misnomer.

Marcus Clark:

It makes kids feel like, “His name’s not Steve. He’s a homeless person.”

Estil Wallace:

I’ve always found it interesting that you say that because it’s not about political correctness as much as it’s more about stigma.

Marcus Clark:

Yeah. If it was PC I wouldn’t be saying it. PC is like saying something so you don’t have people say something against you. I get more flack for saying-

Estil Wallace:

So people don’t leave you negative comments on your tweets.

Marcus Clark:

Right. Right. I get more flack from saying “people experiencing homelessness” than people … no one cares.

Estil Wallace:

All right. Well then what the actual fuck is going on in the world? There are more people dying every day of drugs and alcohol than ever before in history. This is late July of 2020.

Marcus Clark:

Mm-hmm (affirmative)

Estil Wallace:

And the numbers are through the roof. What’s going on out there?

Marcus Clark:

Why are more people dying?

Estil Wallace:

Yeah, I mean in 2015 it was like, “Oh, opioid crisis. Opioid epidemic. We got to get a handle on this thing,” and the numbers have just escalated every year. 2018, started passing legislation. Things started changing policy, and it’s getting worse still.

Marcus Clark:

You mean with the epidemic or just is void of epidemic, people would still be dying at a higher rate than-

Estil Wallace:

Hard to say, but that’s where it’s at. I mean, we got this coronavirus thing going, so I have no doubt that contributes to it, but what is causing so many people to die?

Marcus Clark:

I don’t know. I mean, I have my ideas, but-

Estil Wallace:

That’s what I want to know. I want to know your ideas.

Marcus Clark:

A million reasons. We’re a culture that’s set apart. The American culture is very isolated. It’s a isolated culture. People don’t go outside, people don’t talk to their neighbors. There’s no connectedness in the community. It’s a lot. Let me not say there is none, there is some, but we as Americans have a higher rate of diabetes. We have a Level 4 country. What’s it called with babies that die when they’re born?

Estil Wallace:

Mortality

Marcus Clark:

Mortality rate’s really high in this country for a Level 4 country. We have huge houses for small groups of people. Think about what our ideal is of what a lot of space is.

Estil Wallace:

That’s true. Suicide rates are high. Suicide rates are high in Level 4 countries across the world though.

Marcus Clark:

Right, but you’d think that GDP growth would be like people are more happy, but it’s not true.

Estil Wallace:

Yeah, people thought that for a long time.

Marcus Clark:

It’s not even connected.

Estil Wallace:

If we could just solve all of our environmental problems we would be happy and life would flourish. Civic unity would occur and we could focus on art, and education and music, but you’re right, that hasn’t really happened.

Marcus Clark:

That’s from the book.

Estil Wallace:

Which one, Sapiens?

Marcus Clark:

No, the big book.

Estil Wallace:

Oh.

Marcus Clark:

It’s exactly what it says. It talks about that, the prosaic steel girder.

Estil Wallace:

The steel girder.

Marcus Clark:

Right, that’s what I thought-

Estil Wallace:

I mean, there are a lot of people that have thought that in decades past. Once we get past this industrial revolution, or once we get past the-

Marcus Clark:

Now the technology.

Estil Wallace:

… the technology revolution, things will be so much better. We’ll be able to focus on the things that really matter in life, but the truth is people are still people.

Marcus Clark:

I think it’ll become more integrated. I think technology won’t- right now the biggest problem with technology is the interface.

Estil Wallace:

Expand on that.

Marcus Clark:

Interface. This is my input. Right here in my hand, I have more knowledge in this. Anything I want to know, literally. The slowest part of this transaction is the bandwidth of the internet. That’s not the slowest part, but the slowest part is my thumbs.

Estil Wallace:

Right.

Marcus Clark:

I can only type so fast and I can only read so fast. Right now, the interface that we have to have with technology is cumbersome. That’s why they’re building Google Homes, and Siri, so it’s seamless. When you wake up you think what the weather is, it shows you what the weather is. Eventually, technology will be more integrated into our daily lives to where it’s more natural.

Estil Wallace:

On one hand you have the beneficial parts of technology revolution. We have the possibility of smart cities, completely seamless integration of the internet of things from our computers to our cars, to our air conditioning, to the way we access information for education. For everything.

Marcus Clark:

Kombucha.

Estil Wallace:

Kombucha.

Marcus Clark:

Just wanted to let them know.

Estil Wallace:

Delivered.

Marcus Clark:

I just want the people to know that this is kombucha.

Estil Wallace:

Oh. Yeah, he likes the ‘buch.

Marcus Clark:

Yeah.

Estil Wallace:

So, there’s that. That’s the positive side. Right? Medical advancements, you can go on and on about the benefits of integrating everything with technology. The drawback, and the one I’m hearing more and more lately especially since 2020 … ever since the coronavirus has changed the way the entire world operates, many people have been pushed/forced/encouraged into these digital platforms.

Marcus Clark:

Mm-hmm (affirmative)

Estil Wallace:

To continue connecting even though we’re not in person.

Marcus Clark:

Mm-hmm (affirmative)

Estil Wallace:

I’ve heard a lot of people saying lately … and I think it goes all the way down the line with technology and I think that’s why some people have feared it even from the beginning and why some people have never taken to social media. That is the theory that the more we create technology to connect us, it does the opposite.

Marcus Clark:

Yeah.

Estil Wallace:

It puts us further apart.

Marcus Clark:

I don’t think technology to connect us is what will connect us. I think technology will become so normal and so integrated in our lives that we will spend more time connecting one on one. We went way off the subject of what’s happening, but we’ll wrap it back around hopefully.

Estil Wallace:

You’re a glass half full kind of guy right now and I like it.

Marcus Clark:

What will happen is, is that technology, the interface, which makes it hard to connect … Zoom suck. Zoom’s garbage. No one wants to connect on Zoom. Zoom’s a horrible way to connect people.

Estil Wallace:

It is.

Marcus Clark:

There’s a whole set of memes now, and YouTube videos, and gifs, and everything talking crap about Zoom because it sucks for connection.

Estil Wallace:

It does.

Marcus Clark:

There’s too many things that we-

Estil Wallace:

It’s better than nothing for those of you that are watching. Boys and girls, if you can’t get to a meeting for whatever reason, and the Zoom meeting is the best you can do, do that.

Marcus Clark:

Oh yeah, whole different subject than Zoom meetings, but-

Estil Wallace:

But officially-

Marcus Clark:

This sucks.

Estil Wallace:

It sucks.

Marcus Clark:

You couldn’t have this conversation via Zoom because you can’t pick up on certain cues.

Estil Wallace:

No.

Marcus Clark:

You talk over each other because you can’t really decipher when someone’s speaking. There’s so many ways speaking via a two dimensional object is way harder than speaking via three dimensional object and the fact that we can pick up naturally on each other’s cues.

Estil Wallace:

Yeah.

Marcus Clark:

You can feel it. You can’t pick that up via a TV screen.

Estil Wallace:

We did that presentation for 200 veterinarians.

Marcus Clark:

Yeah, it was only half-

Estil Wallace:

We couldn’t see anybody.

Marcus Clark:

You’re pitching to yourself-

Estil Wallace:

It’s weird.

Marcus Clark:

… essentially.

Estil Wallace:

It was super weird.

Marcus Clark:

I think that day will be gone. It’s like the movie … what’s the big blockbuster digital movie about the colony that we invaded? They were all blue.

Estil Wallace:

Oh, Avatar?

Marcus Clark:

How their technology was so built into their world.

Estil Wallace:

It’s organic.

Marcus Clark:

Right. We will get to a stage of organic-

Estil Wallace:

How the ponytail syncs with the horse’s ponytail.

Marcus Clark:

Right. We will get to a level of organic technology and we’ll spend more time on things that matter because eventually people won’t work anymore.

Estil Wallace:

Where I can grow a little rat tail, it will connect to my car?

Marcus Clark:

We’ll be gone long. They’re already doing it with Neuralink.

Estil Wallace:

Neuralink.

Marcus Clark:

You won’t even drive your car. You’ll get in a car, it’ll drive to where you need to do. You’ll spend more of your life connecting with people rather than trying to … I have to spend half my time producing for people who aren’t in my immediate family. You have to spend a large portion of your life producing for people who aren’t in your immediate family, or even in your tribe of people. The amount of energy that you have to put out to produce for even more.

Marcus Clark:

It’s like, if I work for BMW, I’m building cars for the world. When we were hunter-gatherer, I was just producing for my small band, so I wasn’t spending 40 hours a week working. I was spending 10. I went and hunted because I was a hunter. We hunted once a week. You were a hunter-gatherer and you spent 4 hours a day gathering nuts and berries. You made clothes. We provided for each other and we didn’t spend 40 hours of our time doing something. We spent a lot smaller percentage of our time doing something.

Estil Wallace:

Will my head still look like this, or would it just be really long and scraggly and thin?

Marcus Clark:

Probably, I don’t know. I don’t know what hunter-gatherers would look like.

Estil Wallace:

You only live to be like 20 though, don’t you?

Marcus Clark:

Right, I’m not saying their society was better. We’ve definitely increased that, but it’s like the give and flow, the ebb and flow. You work really hard-

Estil Wallace:

So, what do you think that’s going to do? What do you think as we continue to advance technologically and we have more and more opportunities to make information flow simpler? Can we go back to having 12-step meetings in person? Is that going to happen? Is that a thing?

Marcus Clark:

Yeah, we’ll definitely have meetings in person.

Estil Wallace:

Luckily, rehabs are still in person.

Marcus Clark:

Yeah, of course you’ll have meetings in person.

Estil Wallace:

What do you think’s going on out there? You’ve built a case that there’s so much going on in the world.

Marcus Clark:

Right now we’re very isolated.

Estil Wallace:

[crosstalk 00:14:08] We’re very isolated as a country, as our culture in the US.

Marcus Clark:

It’s the only thing that separates us. We’re consumers. It’s buy, buy, buy, more, more, more makes you happy. You remember those days.

Estil Wallace:

Mm-hmm (affirmative). That’s what you think is a big contributing factor to so many people-

Marcus Clark:

It’s backwards.

Estil Wallace:

… drug addiction.

Marcus Clark:

It’s such our world is backwards. We’re taught backwards. My parents taught me backwards. Now, you can enjoy having a family, but before then you couldn’t. Even if you had it you’d still be getting loaded. You have to learn the opposite way around. You had to learn how to feel yourself feel connected to the world so that when you had a family, you could be grateful for it. You had to learn to be grateful for what you have. Live in gratitude, and then when you earned something you felt something from it rather than get all the stuff, the feelings come second. The feelings come first and the things that you require as a result of this feeling have meaning.

Marcus Clark:

It’s a backwards world. That’s what we do here, is we teach them how to think the opposite way. “Hey, don’t worry about a house, and a car and a job because-” wherever … unemployment rate’s 11% now. So, 9 out of 10 people have the stuff you’re worried about. You’re literally worrying about your God-given right as an American. That’s what you’re worried about.

Estil Wallace:

It’s true though.

Marcus Clark:

I’m not going to get the thing that everyone gets.

Estil Wallace:

It’s true though, new sobriety. Not for all people, but for many people, people that come in, especially younger people that haven’t had a career and they don’t have much of an education, or maybe they’re mid-education … yeah, they come in pretty much destitute. Probably living off mom and dad if they’re lucky enough. Yeah, they have very little and they are very concerned about where am I going to live, where am I going to work, yet dudes missing meetings, missing commitments because they got some $15 an hour job.

Marcus Clark:

And the parents are crying. They have a house, and a car, and money and a job and their parents are crying because all they want is connection for their kid. Complete opposite. Two people living in the same house living opposite lives because them and their parents have probably never had a real conversation about anything with any depth. My parents didn’t. Still, to this day can’t have a real conversation with my mom about anything. To this day. Deep meaningful about something more than just external stuff.

Marcus Clark:

So, I didn’t have a teacher. Your parents didn’t. Probably, you didn’t have a great relationship with your mom until you got sober.

Estil Wallace:

Yeah.

Marcus Clark:

Then you built this relationship built off you building connection with her. She just didn’t know that you didn’t have that internal thing. She didn’t know that you were missing that.

Estil Wallace:

I think you’re nailing on the head. I had a relationship. For the very first time I had a strong relationship. Communication, honesty, some level of vulnerability with my sponsor. He really coerced me into that, coached me into it. From there, I had rebuilt relationships with my family, with some of my older friends that I had known since grade school, and then with new relationships was able to forge deep, meaningful relationships.

Marcus Clark:

You modeled the first relationship you ever had built off respect, honesty, and trust and love.

Estil Wallace:

Mm-hmm (affirmative)

Marcus Clark:

And now you are able to model that relationships. My parents, and a lot of people in our country missed the boat because they don’t know that for kids like me and you, people like us, we don’t have that built in. We need that connection taught to us and taught that that’s the most important thing and everything else is secondary. I never knew that. I thought if I went to college, and I went to college, got a job and a girlfriend and made money, I’d be happy and I never was.

Estil Wallace:

It’s easy to blame that on culture, and you’re not wrong by saying that, but I think each of us has responsibility because we all make up the culture. I think it’s each of us-

Marcus Clark:

But that’s that individualism, and I’m not arguing, but that’s the American thought process.

Estil Wallace:

Right. Well, I think as individuals we tend to take on the responsibility of every person we come in contact with. Showing them the other perspective.

Marcus Clark:

But can I ask you a question?

Estil Wallace:

Yes.

Marcus Clark:

I like that because you say- A, you’re like, “I can see how you can blame it on culture.” Right? And B, you’re like, “I think that it’s on us individually.” But AA teaches us the opposite. They tell us it’s the group, we. The first thing you get sober with-

Estil Wallace:

It isn’t spoke, but the group is made of individuals.

Marcus Clark:

Right, but you don’t yourself like that.

Estil Wallace:

So, we each have our responsibility and together we make up the cultures.

Marcus Clark:

Why don’t we have that thought process in our culture as Americans? It’s the opposite because in AA it’s-

Estil Wallace:

Some people do, but it’s not everybody.

Marcus Clark:

Right. It’s not taught that. You like to go vacation where?

Estil Wallace:

Lots of places. Europe.

Marcus Clark:

But where you have your home at, Norway.

Estil Wallace:

Norway.

Marcus Clark:

They’re a culture together.

Estil Wallace:

Yes. There’s a Norwegian culture.

Marcus Clark:

And in their culture it’s almost their job to be helpful, help your neighbors, be connected with-

Estil Wallace:

They’re pretty nice people, yeah.

Marcus Clark:

… take care of your entire community. They don’t even have a word for homelessness. [Nicole 00:19:20] told me that.

Estil Wallace:

I don’t know. I don’t know. [crosstalk 00:19:24] Norwegian language well enough to tell you that.

Marcus Clark:

But that’s such a different thought process, and in AA taught me that. “Hey man, good job for doing what you do.” I’ve always said this. I’ve always said it entire, “Oh, that’s just what we do.” I don’t think I’m a good dude for doing this. This is just what we do. What do you mean? Everybody does this. That dude had eight dudes in his car, what do you mean? He just got his car last week and he was picking up dudes across the valley.

Estil Wallace:

Agreed. I learned it in 12-step fellowships as well.

Marcus Clark:

Who learns that as a kid? I didn’t. I didn’t learn that you’re supposed to go … I wish my mom would’ve been like, “Hey, so you have a car. You need to go pick up all these kids. That’s part of what you do, Marcus, is you help people-“

Estil Wallace:

Drive them to school.

Marcus Clark:

“… you drive them to school.”

Estil Wallace:

Drive the other kids in our neighborhood and your class to school.

Marcus Clark:

“If they ask you for gas money, you say no. If you see a kid with dirty tennis shoes, tell me because apparently his parents don’t have food or money. Let’s go give him some food, and then I’ll help buy that kid some shoes.”

Estil Wallace:

I love that. I love that. Bottom of my heart. Flipping the script from cultured individualism, that’s where you and I have the opportunity to do that with our kids.

Marcus Clark:

Right. I agree.

Estil Wallace:

And with the men that we bring in to recovery.

Marcus Clark:

100%. I agree, I just think thinking that individual first, that that’s the individual responsibility, lends us to continuing to perpetuate the same problem that we do in our culture. If we’re Americans and our job is to take care of each other, then we do. If we see somebody that doesn’t have money at the store, you pay. You help them. How many times do you know somebody’s struggling? Now, when you help, but how many times have I not? I see somebody struggling and it’s not … “Oh, you know what? That’s not my job.” Individual. Somebody else will take care of that.

Marcus Clark:

This is what stood out to me. It’s this movie called The Bridge, and I’m going to warn you all, do not watch this movie if you are sad. You heard about it?

Estil Wallace:

A tearjerker? No, I haven’t seen it.

Marcus Clark:

The Bridge. When I did my suicide training on how to talk to people when they’re talking about committing suicide, they make you watch the movie The Bridge.

Estil Wallace:

Is it about the Golden Gate Bridge?

Marcus Clark:

Where people jump off.

Estil Wallace:

Okay.

Marcus Clark:

Dudes crying.

Estil Wallace:

I actually have heard of it.

Marcus Clark:

Balling.

Estil Wallace:

I have not seen it.

Marcus Clark:

Balling next to the bridge. That’s what people are doing.

Estil Wallace:

Driving by?

Marcus Clark:

Walking.

Estil Wallace:

Walking by?

Marcus Clark:

Walking. Walking by him.

Estil Wallace:

They don’t say anything?

Marcus Clark:

Nothing. That’s in our culture. How many times have you see a dude crying and you walk right by? I have because I’m not going to blame, it’s the truth. We walk by a lot of times.

Estil Wallace:

Well, this isn’t really a walking city so I don’t walk that much. I understand what you’re saying.

Marcus Clark:

You see somebody, you just walk by.

Estil Wallace:

Admittedly, I drove by at least three people experiencing homelessness this morning on the way to work. Sleeping at three different bus stops in order, which is interesting because this part of town you don’t typically see people sleeping at bus stops, but it’s three in a row.

Marcus Clark:

It’s becoming worse now.

Estil Wallace:

Yeah. Three in a row.

Marcus Clark:

You don’t need the news to tell you that.

Estil Wallace:

No.

Marcus Clark:

Use your eyes to tell you we got a whole problem with people experiencing homelessness.

Estil Wallace:

Yes.

Marcus Clark:

And it’s getting worse in_

Estil Wallace:

Homelessness is on the rise in Phoenix.

Marcus Clark:

Houses are more expensive, people are experiencing more homelessness. Weird.

Estil Wallace:

Admittedly, I drove by them, looked at them, observed them and thought, “I don’t have the calories it takes to help solve that.” So, yes I get it.

Marcus Clark:

We pay people to do it.

Estil Wallace:

Yeah. I mean, we do help people in that capacity to a degree.

Marcus Clark:

100%.

Estil Wallace:

But it’s not necessarily every person I pass by on the street.

Marcus Clark:

We create jobs for it. Got social workers, dog.

Estil Wallace:

That’s true.

Marcus Clark:

You ain’t my responsibility. How many people will figure out who they can call before what they can do.

Estil Wallace:

Now we’re talking about a very sore subject for a lot cities. It’s getting worse in Arizona, but particularly bad in California. There’s so many people living homeless and many of them are either suffering from an addiction or they’re suffering with mental illness. Sever mental illness. They’ve simply slipped through the cracks. They’ve gotten to a point where not enough people give a shit enough and that’s just the way they live.

Marcus Clark:

This might be controversial, but let’s defund the police rather than what I can do as an individual. We’re blamers. My kid’s teacher sucks, we need to change the whole school system. “You know what? The problem’s the teachers. They’re a bad teacher. It couldn’t be my parenting that could be the issue here. It’s definitely-” What? It’s like a cold hard examination of ourselves. You ask me what’s wrong with why we’re getting increased alcohol and drug addiction. Why are we as people willing to write more prescriptions? Because doctor’s got 15 minutes, he’s got to make his money. He’s going to give him the thing. Instead of sitting and talking with the dude, he’s going to write him a prescription.

Estil Wallace:

It’s easier.

Marcus Clark:

It’s the same. All of it’s the same.

Estil Wallace:

It’s calling the social worker rather than helping the guy with a bite to eat-

Marcus Clark:

Helping out your neighbor-

Estil Wallace:

and maybe help him answer some questions.

Marcus Clark:

… before they lose their house. Helping your neighbor’s kid when you see him struggling. You got your three, four, five kids at your house and their teenagers, and they go lock themselves in the room and you go downstairs and watch the TV show you want to watch because you don’t want to deal with them. Because you don’t want to get to know this 15 year old who’s going to become a drug addict even though you see signs of your own kid, or someone else’s kid, and you don’t do anything. I don’t do anything. I just deal with my stuff because I’m an individual, and you know what? They’ll figure it out.

Marcus Clark:

Then we’re going to be quick to blame everybody else. We talk about it all the time, how our society is quick to blame and disregard, and make mean posts and comments about people standing up for themselves.

Estil Wallace:

Particularly this year. I agree with you. This year has been a very shameful example in our culture of blaming from every angle, politically.

Marcus Clark:

[inaudible 00:25:45] Let’s do something. And no one does anything personally, but we just vote [crosstalk 00:25:49]

Estil Wallace:

Okay, I agree.

Marcus Clark:

It’s like, “What?”

Estil Wallace:

When I think individualism, I think each one of us takes our own responsibility. We can’t all take our own personal responsibility on every issue-

Marcus Clark:

No.

Estil Wallace:

… but we can take responsibility for the issues that effect us and effect our kids and our neighbors, and our friends.

Marcus Clark:

But I think thinking that way is backwards. Think of us as connected people that are together, and as a result of me not seeing you as different but seeing you just as me, as another person in this world, I will then do something different. Because that’s what the AA taught us. It just switched it. It switched our thinking. I’m going to get myself sober to know-

Estil Wallace:

We get sober together.

Marcus Clark:

We get sober together and if you switch that, it’s your responsibility to fucking do what you need to do to help people, to it’s our responsibility to help each other. It’s the same thing, but it switches my logic, and we are very “our” based people. To a fault. We are so “our” based that we have to turn ourselves off. Not R, in letter R, and not ‘ar’ in a-r-e, but our. I’m from South Carolina, that’s why I said are.

Marcus Clark:

Every decision that we make as a company, we think about how it affects everyone. Every decision we make fiscally, we think about how it affects everyone. Every decision we make to bring in a client, we think about how it affects everyone, and probably to a fault, and we have to fight with that more than we do with helping people. We have to be like, “Sometimes we got to stop.”

Estil Wallace:

And not just help every single person that-

Marcus Clark:

That would be an amazing American problem. Like, “Hey guys, you all got to quit helping people. Hey, how about you worry about yourself right now instead of always having to raise money and do charities.” It’s all we ever have to do, and everybody just wants to give a dollar to a problem rather than spend time.

Estil Wallace:

It’s true. It’s much easier to fall in love with the pitch from a commercial, an advertisement, something I saw on social media, or something my friend or my boss is all fired up about rather than actually research an issue, form my own opinion independently, and then contribute in whatever way is manageable and meaningful for me. Again, I can’t do that with everything, but with addiction, I can do that.

Marcus Clark:

Mm-hmm (affirmative)

Estil Wallace:

With racism, I can do that.

Marcus Clark:

Mm-hmm (affirmative)

Estil Wallace:

With-

Marcus Clark:

Sexism.

Estil Wallace:

With sexism, I can do that.

Marcus Clark:

With my neighbor.

Estil Wallace:

Absolutely.

Marcus Clark:

“You need anything?” with somebody at the store.

Estil Wallace:

With homelessness, with people living homeless in the city, I can do it to a degree but it’s pretty small. Again, if it’s just me … I shouldn’t try to put a label on it whether it’s good or bad, it is what it is. I don’t want to pat myself on the back. I’ve gotten some dudes like you have from being homeless to being inside.

Estil Wallace:

That’s by no means what we do for a living and it’s not what we do all day every day. I certainly wouldn’t want to measure up how many people I’ve done that for, or you’ve done that for, against an organization who’s sole purpose is to do that.

Marcus Clark:

But if every person did that, we wouldn’t need organizations to do it. It goes in to this dude talked about it, our obsession with superhero movies. It’s an American obsession with the superhero. We want there to be one dude that fixes everything and saves us, rather than me taking the responsibility of doing it myself. I need you to save me. The officer didn’t do his job because he didn’t- the firefighter … We used to put out each other’s homes if somebody’s house caught on fire.

Marcus Clark:

I don’t know. That really, honestly, to me is what is causing … because if you want to systematize it and fix each system that’s broken, you’re going to fix 12 million systems. I think if you change the way people-

Estil Wallace:

Well, and then how many iterations of each system? And who the fuck votes on that? Each one’s a shit show waiting to happen.

Marcus Clark:

We’ll never get anything done.

Estil Wallace:

It’s true.

Marcus Clark:

We’ll continue to vote, to talk about the opioid epidemic, which we did and it actually got worse, and we’re going to continue to take truck loads of money and throw it at this problem and continue to have the same problem. It’s like, “Well, if you would’ve talked to your kid when he was 12 and he was sitting at home, and he felt isolated and he was miserable and you didn’t know what to do, but you researched it instead of just taking him to a professional off the bat. You would’ve researched it.

Estil Wallace:

Giving him ADD medication?

Marcus Clark:

Mm-hmm (affirmative)

Estil Wallace:

It’s tricky, man. We get into this place where so many things are offered to us, they’re productized, they’re wrapped up in a bow and say, “Oh, this is how we treat mental health. This is how we treat addiction over here.” And I think as people that work in that space, we are so used to the clean up. We’re so used to damage repair that we, meaning not just, as a community, we don’t really think about prevention. D.A.R.E. doesn’t fucking work.

Marcus Clark:

Hm-mm.

Estil Wallace:

At least they were thinking about it, but it didn’t do shit.

Marcus Clark:

Because D.A.R.E. was the drop, that was it. “My kid learned D.A.R.E. I don’t got to talk about drugs.”

Estil Wallace:

Right.

Marcus Clark:

Birds and the bees?

Estil Wallace:

And there, there’s the product, here’s prevention.

Marcus Clark:

Why does the school have to do drugs-

Estil Wallace:

Shouldn’t somebody do something about all this drug addiction? Why don’t we have a prevention effort?

Marcus Clark:

We just keep sliding everything to schools.

Estil Wallace:

Let’s have police officers go in and try to convince them not to do drugs.

Marcus Clark:

Talk to my kids about sex? How about the schools do that? Teach my kids how to exercise? The got P.E. What else can I slide somewhere else to teach my human, that I brought into the world, how to be a part of the world? Who else can I pawn off this piece of my life to?

Estil Wallace:

What you’re proposing, I think, has a lot of merit. I also think it’s really tricky.

Marcus Clark:

There’s plenty of countries who do, that are way more connected as unity as a group.

Estil Wallace:

True. I’m thinking about parenting in 2020 in America. Besides the fact that we’ve got all the dangers of big city life in major cities, you’ve got social media, all the technological dangers, and many parents, if there’s two parents in the home, they’re both working. And there are many that are just single parent families, in which case the parent is working. So, you get minimal interface time with the child, or children.

Estil Wallace:

These are questions even for myself as a parent. I’ve got kids. How do I as a parent spend the appropriate amount of time talking about the appropriate information, those critical learning moments? Those formative years. [crosstalk 00:32:42]

Estil Wallace:

What’s that?

Marcus Clark:

Starts before that. There’s prep, on prep, on prep. Before I have a kid, I look at my lifestyle. I make decisions based off I’m going to bring a person into this world, is this person going to be appropriately able to deal with it? Am I in the appropriate situation to be able to take on this duty? It’s all, the ownership doesn’t just start at the kid. Then, we’re having the same problem. You thought about what it was going to be like to raise a kid many years before you had a kid.

Estil Wallace:

Yeah.

Marcus Clark:

So, it goes into us thinking about each other. Your kids are going to learn that this is how you’re supposed to be raised. Before you have kids, you talk to dad and then you ask him questions about what it’s like to be a parent, and then you prep before you have a kid because you were raised with parents who prepped before you had kids.

Estil Wallace:

Now you’re making me sad. I wish my parents were here and we could talk about parenting.

Marcus Clark:

I wish I could talk to my parents about parenting. It’s just that whole thing. I watched in Barcelona where people, they stopped at the corner and they talked to people. It blew my mind. You didn’t see anybody in restaurants with phones. Not one person. You go to a restaurant, nobody’s on their phone. You sat and you ate, and you sat at benches and you talked to people. Populated city, huge amounts of city life, and everybody had dogs and they saw each other’s neighbors and they waved, and they knew their neighbors. It was just different. There is plenty of cities who are extremely populated who don’t have drug addiction to the level that we do. Think about Japan and suicide rate in Japan.

Estil Wallace:

Yeah.

Marcus Clark:

Isolated people who don’t have connection with each other.

Estil Wallace:

Yeah.

Marcus Clark:

We need connection. We talk about it all the time.

Estil Wallace:

Yep.

Marcus Clark:

It’s important. It’s the most important thing for humans to have connection. Can’t rip it apart and you can’t replace it with technology.

Estil Wallace:

First of all, that was fucking amazing. That was a really long, great answer to a very simple … simple but hard to answer … question. Why is addiction out of control in 2020, and isolation is a good answer. More than ever, I think, in these last few months obviously. People are more isolated than they’ve been, even in an isolated culture. Or even more isolated most of this last year.

Marcus Clark:

And we have to watch commercials telling us to call our friends. It blows my mind that that’s even a commercial. Have you seen those?

Estil Wallace:

No, I don’t watch much television [crosstalk 00:35:07]

Marcus Clark:

It’s all bit companies. Like, “If you’re struggling, pick up the phone and call your friends and check-” I’m like, why do you need to teach me that?

Estil Wallace:

Because unfortunately there are people that haven’t heard that. I just put a video on Instagram yesterday or the day before telling people to do that.

Marcus Clark:

But we all give each other high fives and like videos, but then what are doing? I ask dudes that all the time when I go to a meeting. You’re going to get here and people are going to say some dope stuff, and you’re going to hear some amazing speakers talk about trials and tribulations, and struggling through to get sober. Then you’re going to go home and cut your TV on. You’re going to back to sober living and play cards with your boy. Or you’re going to just-

Estil Wallace:

Play Halo till 4:00 AM.

Marcus Clark:

Right?

Estil Wallace:

Nothing wrong with that, but yet the tools that are taught in recovery are supported just by application. 12-step meetings are just where people in recovery come to share experience, strengthen up. They listen to each other, talk to each other. They network with each other.

Marcus Clark:

What do we have for them sitting all day?

Estil Wallace:

Meeting before the meeting. What’s that?

Marcus Clark:

What do we have for our clients sitting in all day here?

Estil Wallace:

Group.

Marcus Clark:

Which is what?

Estil Wallace:

Socialization, not isolation.

Marcus Clark:

That’s all we teach these dudes. “Hey, how do I stay sober?”

Estil Wallace:

That’s not all we teach them.

Marcus Clark:

But, you know, it’s the majority of what we do.

Estil Wallace:

Yes.

Marcus Clark:

We deal with family systems.

Estil Wallace:

Mm-hmm (affirmative)

Marcus Clark:

More than anything else. How you were raised. What happened? Okay, let’s deal with that. Let’s teach you healthy family systems. Let’s mimic healthy relationships in your life. Let’s teach you how to connect with people, and let’s teach you how to look at yourself and make accurate assessments of what’s going on.

Estil Wallace:

Mm-hmm (affirmative). Learn how to love your neighbors. Tolerate differences of opinion. Get up on time. Go to bed on time. Exercise your body.

Marcus Clark:

Welcome to life.

Estil Wallace:

Welcome to adulthood.

Marcus Clark:

Oh, it’s hard? That’s beautiful. Welcome to the beautiful struggle you get to have. It’s a gorgeous experience, man, when you actually are in it, man. It’s just, I never was for 25 years. I never felt consistent. I never felt connection. I can think back on my life-

Estil Wallace:

Isolating alone.

Marcus Clark:

… I lived 25 years before I ever lived one day. You can’t put your days in crying from your daughters … Nothing! “Did you see her jump in the water? Marcus, look at the video. She’s jumping and, oh my God!” What? How much more connected to the world can you be?

Estil Wallace:

Right.

Marcus Clark:

People don’t get that. They miss that. I missed that for 25 years.

Estil Wallace:

Me too. I had no idea. I actually deluded myself into thinking I didn’t need people.

Marcus Clark:

No, of course not because you couldn’t find connection.

Estil Wallace:

Huh-uh. I started to convince myself I didn’t need it.

Marcus Clark:

Right.

Estil Wallace:

And addiction can work that way because it’s all primarily between the ears. If I couldn’t get something to work, I would convince myself that was useless.

Marcus Clark:

Mm-hmm (affirmative)

Estil Wallace:

Finances. Family system. Love. Connection.

Marcus Clark:

I’m going to find that connection and-

Estil Wallace:

[crosstalk 00:38:10] and self care.

Marcus Clark:

That’s what we’re looking for when we’re getting loaded is that connection, and drugs gives us that connection. Makes us feel-

Estil Wallace:

I thought it was in addition to, but it was actually in place of.

Marcus Clark:

Mm-hmm (affirmative)

Estil Wallace:

And then years went by.

Marcus Clark:

Mm-hmm (affirmative)

Estil Wallace:

You strip alcohol and drugs away and you have a fucking dysfunctional adult, doesn’t know how to live. Doesn’t know how to love. Doesn’t know how to receive love.

Marcus Clark:

Argues with you about love.

Estil Wallace:

Mm-hmm (affirmative)

Marcus Clark:

You’re just trying to save them and they’re just like, “No! I got this. I know what I’m doing,” and I’m, “All right, buddy. Good luck, man. You sound miserable.” “Misery is just part of life.” “Are you happy?” “Yeah, I’m happy.” You don’t sound happy.

Estil Wallace:

Are you happy?

Marcus Clark:

Right. Yeah. [crosstalk 00:38:54]

Estil Wallace:

… happiness I suppose, if you want to be semantical. Happiness can be something that comes and goes, but my life is full and it’s rich. It’s full of joy. Not everything is a rainbow, but all of it’s real. I don’t want to trade any of it. It’s all authentic. None of it’s counterfeit.

Marcus Clark:

I’m sad and happy. I’m not sad and then use synthetic things to make me happy.

Estil Wallace:

Right.

Marcus Clark:

So I can have that variation.

Estil Wallace:

Using synthetic things to block out the sadness.

Marcus Clark:

Right.

Estil Wallace:

To dull the pain.

Marcus Clark:

Looking for a variation and I don’t have it. I never had it.

Estil Wallace:

I know that some people start that way. They start with trying to numb pain or get away from it, and I get that, especially if you had traumatic childhood experiences. I got to tell you, even if some of that was present, when I started getting loaded I was trying to add to. I was like, “This is so much cooler when I’m baked.” I was trying to take that approach to getting loaded, and it became what you just described. It became where I needed to get fucked up to just manage in the poor way I could manage every day.

Marcus Clark:

But you never really talked about that stuff growing up, either.

Estil Wallace:

No.

Marcus Clark:

You weren’t ready for it.

Estil Wallace:

No. Yeah, I will keep the responsibility. I was not ready to talk about it, not honestly.

Marcus Clark:

Hm, I like how you protect them.

Estil Wallace:

Well, if they have their own part-

Marcus Clark:

I love my family, but I don’t protect them. It’s like, “Yeah, you fucked up. It’s okay. I’m going to fuck up.” But it’s like, you did. I don’t know if that would’ve stopped me from being a drug addict, but it would’ve definitely prepared me more for life.

Estil Wallace:

Look, I’ve said this before and I’ll say it now. I did not grow up in a household where we talked about much that was very deep.

Marcus Clark:

Mm-hmm (affirmative)

Estil Wallace:

I grew up in a household where if it was good, we talked about it. If it was bad, we just didn’t really talk about it.

Marcus Clark:

Mm-hmm (affirmative)

Estil Wallace:

Once in a while, there’d be a come-to-Jesus talk over bad grades or something that was very serious, but it was usually pretty poignant and short. Finally, my dad had to say something.

Marcus Clark:

You couldn’t go on a journey with them.

Estil Wallace:

No. No, no, no. We didn’t talk like this.

Marcus Clark:

I think this is nice.

Estil Wallace:

I didn’t talk like this with anybody-

Marcus Clark:

But that’s like human nature.

Estil Wallace:

… until I got into recovery.

Marcus Clark:

They used to sit around the fire and people would tell stories and you asked questions and they-

Estil Wallace:

I love the visuals I get with your analogies-

Marcus Clark:

I just like to think about human nature as a whole, man, and that is the most important part of us is this thing in our head. You need someone to navigate that waters with.

Estil Wallace:

That’s what it’s about, is navigating with. I like the way that feels.

Marcus Clark:

I get-

Estil Wallace:

I like the vision of that.

Marcus Clark:

… fucking crazy up here without people.

Estil Wallace:

Because it’s not like you guide me through it or I guide you through it, it’s like we help guide each other because we’re not all struggling with the same thing at the same time, yet we all struggle with the same things over lengths of time.

Marcus Clark:

More often than not, there’s not a right answer.

Estil Wallace:

No, life’s super dynamic.

Marcus Clark:

Mm-hmm (affirmative)

Estil Wallace:

Everything’s moving targets.

Marcus Clark:

It’s just that time, man. Giving up the most precious gift you have.

Estil Wallace:

One size fits all T-shirts don’t fucking work for anything.

Marcus Clark:

No, they don’t.

Estil Wallace:

They don’t fit anybody.

Marcus Clark:

They cover you.

Estil Wallace:

Right.

Marcus Clark:

You know what I mean?

Estil Wallace:

Right. They work as a wash rag.

Marcus Clark:

Mm-hmm (affirmative)

Estil Wallace:

Yeah, one size fits all T-shirts don’t fit anybody very well. I think the breakdown of that compartmentalized, productized way of thinking … I think that can turn the tide on what we’ve been calling the opioid epidemic, or just the addiction. The stream of addiction death that we’ve suffered as a species for a long time that’s just gotten so much worse. I think as we continue to have real conversations about what drugs and alcohol are, what they do. Because drugs and alcohol are awesome, right? They’re fucking fun. Get a little fucked up with your friends.

Marcus Clark:

Mm-hmm (affirmative)

Estil Wallace:

The trouble is when that gets out of hand, typically it gets so far out of hand that by the time a person decides for themselves … not like, “Hey, you should do something about this one.” … they think to themselves like, “Ah, fuck. This is getting out of hand.” They’re usually too far gone to do anything about it, and next thing you know, that’s how they live their lives.

Marcus Clark:

Can I ask you a question?

Estil Wallace:

Yeah.

Marcus Clark:

Why do you think we as an institution, and I mean us treatment centers, the things that we really focus on in treatment, why do you think we avoid telling people the truth about what’s causing it. Even though we spend all this time trying to fix it on the back end, why do we not say, “Hey, the reason that people are struggling, or this addiction problem continues to be perpetuated-” Because we all know it. We all do ACA, we all do trauma treatment. Well, not all of us. The good facilities do. ACA and trauma treatment, and we look at the whole person’s life, and we teach them how to build connection.

Marcus Clark:

It doesn’t seem like us as an industry are willing to tell people, “Hey, the reason that this is a problem is because you guys haven’t been doing some stuff right.” We always tiptoe, even with families. We tiptoe around those subjects with people. We don’t want to be too straight forward.

Estil Wallace:

Here’s the answer I can give you that I … here’s my answer. Prevention first and foremost is tricky. How do we effectively communicate with young people who have just begun, or not even yet quite begun, to experiment with drugs and alcohol. How do we effectively communicate to them what the real dangers are because it’s not like-

Marcus Clark:

What about the “before the before” though. Before prevention. Prevention’s late.

Estil Wallace:

All right. Do you want to know why we don’t do it, or do you want what is likely a semi-accurate answer of how to-

Marcus Clark:

What do you feel? However you want to answer it.

Estil Wallace:

Well, I think that we don’t approach it because it’s fucking hard. It’s probably as or more multifaceted and complicated a problem as is solving an addiction later in life. It begins with parenting. It begins with how a human being is raised.

Marcus Clark:

100%.

Estil Wallace:

So, how a human being is raised doesn’t necessarily determine hard and fast that they’re going to become a drug addict, but statistically it skews them that direction.

Marcus Clark:

That should be your slogan.

Estil Wallace:

What?

Marcus Clark:

Ending addiction begins with parenting.

Estil Wallace:

Statistically speaking, let’s talk about ACE testing adverse childhood experience testing. Now, if anybody doesn’t know, just Google it. ACE testing, adverse childhood experience test. It’s a series of 10 questions. You get 1 point for each question that you answer yes to, 0 points for every question you answer no to.

Marcus Clark:

Drug addicts score very, very high on this test.

Estil Wallace:

Yes. 10 is, give or take, about as fathomable as a child can be abused and all the way down to 0. A lot of people fall anywhere on the spectrum that you could imagine. Anybody that tests 4 or higher, the propensity for them to be addicted to substances, drugs or alcohol, it’s something like 75 or 80%. Again, it doesn’t mean that if you scored a 10 on an ACE test that you are guaranteed to be a drug addict. Again, this is just testing.

Marcus Clark:

Just put you in a percentage that more than likely-

Estil Wallace:

Statistically, it’s not good, so we can use that as an indication. Parenting and childhood upbringing plays a significant role. Some of us have alcohol genes, and if we drink too much regardless of what our childhoods are like, we are going to become alcoholics. If we’re trying to answer the questions, we’re trying to answer the riddle, if we were to work on parenting strategies and really teach people, new parents, how to parent more effectively, more communication-

Marcus Clark:

Be more connected.

Estil Wallace:

… it would reduce the number of active addicts in the world over time.

Marcus Clark:

And it would shorten the amount of time that it takes for people to get sober. You spend so much client [inaudible 00:47:14]-

Estil Wallace:

The cleanup’s a shit show.

Marcus Clark:

Just the amount of time you have to take them to be able to be present of themself is so long. It takes people sometimes a long time just to be able to be present with their emotions, what they’re doing, and how they effect people. We struggled with a dude with that recently, and until he had that moment of clarity where he saw how he effected other people, he connected with how it made him feel. He was never able to stay sober.

Estil Wallace:

What’d that take, a month and a half?

Marcus Clark:

Here, plus the multitude of times before.

Estil Wallace:

In the other treatment center.

Marcus Clark:

That’s the key. That’s the first step you learn. It’s the first thing you learn. You can’t do any work without anybody being able-

Estil Wallace:

At least this organization, we are focused on the damage repair. We take someone who’s life has been disassembled by active addiction-

Marcus Clark:

For whatever reasons, yeah.

Estil Wallace:

… and we try to help them. We create an environment where the healing process can happen. We guide them through the healing process, but how do we as a community [crosstalk 00:48:16] Yeah, it’s parenting. It comes down to parenting. This is my view and this is my opinion, both as an individual person and as a professional in the behavioral health space. I believe that a strong focused education for parents using the most up to date statistics we have, and the best methods we can come up with, as inexpensively and widespread as possible so that new parent can learn better parenting habits.

Marcus Clark:

Mm-hmm (affirmative)

Estil Wallace:

I think that would reduce the tidal wave of active addiction to a low roar. I don’t think we’ll ever get rid of it.

Marcus Clark:

No.

Estil Wallace:

There are too many factors, but I think that would take this huge tidal wave down to something that’s more manageable. We’re losing more than 550 alcoholics and drug addicts a day-

Marcus Clark:

In a country-

Estil Wallace:

… just here.

Marcus Clark:

… where everything’s taken care of. Third world countries, their drug addiction problems are way- but their communities are so much more connected.

Estil Wallace:

Some of them.

Marcus Clark:

They got no other choice but to be connected. Communities where people are connected, you see a lot lower rates of drug addiction. Communities where people-

Estil Wallace:

Norway’s a good example. They’re a Level 4 country, but you’re right, they’re much more connected. It’s also a much smaller population and drug addiction still exists, but-

Marcus Clark:

Nowhere near.

Estil Wallace:

… they’re not losing 500 of their citizens every 24 hours.

Marcus Clark:

You can’t even put them in the same category as us.

Estil Wallace:

No. No, we’re obviously a much larger country, but we have a very different culture and we do things a lot differently.

Marcus Clark:

Even if you took the sub-sect of people in AA. Let’s make AA it’s own thing, how many people are we losing to drug addiction as it relates in normal population? A lot less because it’s a community of connected people.

Estil Wallace:

That’s true. 12-step fellowships, if you look at the as their own cohort because you have a lot of 12-step groups out there. Right? There’s AA, CA, HA.

Marcus Clark:

Churches. Any group of people where people are connected, that statistic is going to-

Estil Wallace:

It’s going to drop.

Marcus Clark:

… plummet. Not drop. Drop is like a … Plummet’s like, fell off a cliff. That statistic falls off a cliff. Literally falls off of a fucking cliff.

Estil Wallace:

You’re right. It’s combating isolation. Connectedness.

Marcus Clark:

That is a long ass discussion about a simple question, but it’s not a simple answer. It’s the truth.

Estil Wallace:

That’s correct. Anytime people, parents or people outside of the industry or outside of recovery, kind of peer in, then they ask questions. That’s usually what I have to start with. I have to start with the caveat. I’m like, “I can give you a short version, but you’re asking what sounds like a simple questions, but it’s really complicated.

Marcus Clark:

So, what you need to do is come in the morning clinical meeting, I’m going to need you to sit down with 12 different people. All 12 of us are going to talk about one person and we are going to put our heads together to try to come up with the best game plan that we can to help this person based off what we think is best for him. [crosstalk 00:51:22]

Estil Wallace:

… based off of our assessments.

Marcus Clark:

Right. So, yeah come to our morning clinical meeting and we’ll put the whole team together and we can probably get close to giving you an answer.

Estil Wallace:

Yeah, when we did that thing for all the occupational therapists over at the medical school, they wanted me to say something. She’s like, “So, how do you work with drug addicts?” I said, “Well, let me ask a question. When someone’s released from detox, Level 1 detox facility, they are basically not going to die in your care, and now you have them. Now, you’ve got 30 to 90 days to figure out how to release them to the world balanced, healthy, integrated and ready to live their lives and never do drugs again. Go. What do you do? And they all just kind of were like, “Uh…” I said, “Well, that’s what we do.” The answer to that question is really complicated.

Marcus Clark:

Mm-hmm (affirmative)

Estil Wallace:

We have to walk it backwards. We have to unwind, reverse engineer an entire lifetime worth of dysfunction and try and figure out what’s at the core, which knots can we untie, which challenges are they brave enough to face? It’s complicated.

Marcus Clark:

And their ownership doesn’t end their. Ownership goes way beyond that in everything that we do. You know?

Estil Wallace:

This is good. We should do another one of these soon.

Marcus Clark:

I like it. It was great. I got to pee so bad.

Estil Wallace:

All right man, well that’s it for today.

Marcus Clark:

All right. Thanks for having me.

Estil Wallace:

Later, bro.